Legislature(2001 - 2002)
01/25/2001 01:12 PM House TRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 8 - LEGISLATIVE ROAD DEVELOPMENT TASK FORCE CHAIR KOHRING announced that the first order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 8, "An Act establishing the Legislative Road Development Task Force; and providing for an effective date." Number 0112 REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of HB 8, explained that he had introduced [similar] legislation at the end of the last session in order to highlight that the state has done little or no road building or development, particularly in the rural areas, in the past three decades. The amount of roads built during the past 30 years has been minimal. This came to his attention, he said, "when the Whittier tunnel was opened last year, [when the state] basically built a couple miles of road and paved underneath the tunnel system to open up that particular whole access to the Prince William Sound area." In addition, he said, there was a five- or six-mile road built in Southeastern [Alaska] at Kasaan. Another project was the Skagway International Highway to Whitehorse, Yukon Territory, that was done in the late 1970s under international funding. Those add up to about 20 road miles (plus the Skagway road), and were the only truly new roads that have opened up territory in Alaska in the last 30 years, he said. The last major highway opening was the Parks Highway from Wasilla to Fairbanks in 1971. Number 0284 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he thinks that is a crime "because, clearly, our vast state with its huge storehouse of natural resources just begs to be made available for exploitation and exploration." He expressed his belief that development in the rural areas of Alaska cannot take place without adequate transportation systems. He said he believes that Alaska is truly a natural-resource-extraction type of state. "That is our fundamental grounds for economic development," he said. "To create a more prosperous state, to provide jobs -- and well- paying jobs -- we need to be able to open up and develop some of our lands." REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG emphasized that the state has bountiful natural resources, and he said he finds it somewhat ironic "at the same time that the prior federal administration has closed down the Tongass National Forest and implemented their roadless policies here, that I'm coming to the legislature to try to re- ignite something that used to be done years ago. When I grew up in this state, we had the old Alaska Road Commission," he recalled. "We were punching trails and gravel roads all over the state trying to open up the land." But so little road building has been done in recent years that he is introducing the idea of a task force. Number 0436 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said that for minimal cost, a $9,000 fiscal note, he wants to bring together people from throughout the state and generate interest. He proposed that the task force look at existing plans that have been studied over the years by the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities (DOT&PF), but on which there has been no action. "It's time that we look at these projects that we know are basically needed and prioritize them," he said. He noted his intention is to elevate public attention to this situation so the legislature can elevate the capital spending and allocation of funds to these areas. He said he thinks this is a propitious moment with Alaska's Congressman Don Young chairing the federal House Transportation Committee. "He's going to have significant access to additional funding," Representative Rokeberg said. "It's my understanding that federal highway dollars can be used for non-highway-type projects, in other words, for gravel roads that meet certain standards. I think we need to revisit that, and that is the intention of this particular task force." REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he thinks the task force can and should work very closely with DOT&PF, but ultimately should come back with a report to the legislature with a prioritized list of roads and recommendations for some new road development. Number 0571 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG then referred to the list of roads in the bill. He said the first one is the Williamsport Road from Pile Bay to Iliamna Bay. A number of fishermen put their vessels on flatbed trucks and haul them on the Williamsport Road to Lake Iliamna, from which they can go down to the Bristol Bay commercial fisheries. The road is barely maintained by a private-sector group, he said. Modest amounts of money have been invested by the state in the past on this roadway, which needs to be upgraded so it isn't a safety hazard for these people to use. Also, he said, delivery of freight and other commodities into that area could be enhanced. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG informed the committee that the second road on the list is in the Pogo Mine area, where there is a "highly feasible mineral deposit" that needs a road. That is just the tip of the iceberg, he said, regarding the ways and places where roads can open up the rural areas of the state. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG then referred to a letter he had received from the Alaska Miners Association asking for the addition of a road from the Dalton Highway west to the Ambler copper district. This roadway would open up the entire northwest part of the state. He said he thinks there should be a catchall category in which to list any other road the task force thinks merits review, so that the list they are reviewing is not exclusionary. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said there has been some confusion, on the part of the public, about his intent regarding the work of the task force. "I've always thought of it as a pioneer road task force," he said. Then someone had asked him to add the proposed Lynn Canal road from Juneau to Skagway on the list. He said he is uncomfortable with that idea because that is a highly controversial, major highway. Number 0828 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG explained that he does not intend to "reinvent the wheel" and insert the legislature in the planning process of the DOT&PF on major highway projects. "What I want to do is have a task force get behind particular projects and get some motion going on things that presumably would be less controversial," except to the environmental community, he said. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBURG suggested that the committee insert the word "pioneer" between "Legislative" and "road" on the first page of the bill, so it would read, "the Legislative Pioneer Road Task Force." In its present iteration, the legislation is supported by Teamsters Local 959, the Alaska Miners Association, and the Association of General Contractors, he said. Number 0914 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN suggested simply funding the House Transportation Standing Committee a $9,000 budget, and said, "Let's do it." He said he has seen a lot of task forces come and go, and that for the most part, their studies sit on a shelf and gather dust. He expressed concern about being so far behind, unable to go from one side of the [Matanuska] Valley to the other in his district. "It's just almost an intolerable situation," he said. Fairbanks has four lanes and overpasses and bypasses [while] "we've been promised a four-lane through Wasilla for a decade... and we aren't even crack-sealing the roads we have." He said he is "all for what Representative Rokeberg is trying to do in the philosophy here, but it might be better directed to do it at a time when we have an administration that might be actually receptive to even looking at these things, because ... I think we all know what the Knowles Administration will do with this...." Number 1046 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said although he appreciated Representative Ogan's frustration, the point of this particular bill is not to improve or maintain existing roads, but to develop new ones. The legislature has the power to appropriate, and he believes that the legislature is not exercising its representation of the people by exercising the purse strings. "I think the legislature should have a greater amount of impact on the priority of what projects are done in this state," he said. Number 1132 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said it is certainly up to the finance committees to make the decisions about what is done with the limited funds available. "However," he emphasized, "I truly believe that in the next six years, ... we're going to have additional road monies coming from the federal government. ... I think because of [Congressman] Young's position that we're going to have substantially more money, and I think it's past due time that we open up some country to create some jobs and some development in this state. This state's been in a big lockup, in my opinion." REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG then addressed Representative Ogan's suggestion about giving the money to the House Transportation Standing Committee and having it do the work. He said that the intention of the task force, as is apparent from its suggested makeup, is to go out into the public and build a ... public constituency and raise the level of discussion about the issue throughout the state. He expressed the need to make a policy decision that "the rural areas of the state need to be developed and we need to punch some roads in there." There have been people out there for decades asking for funding, with very good arguments for projects, and they are not being heard, he concluded. Number 1248 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he has the same concern about building new projects like these roads as he does with some of the "well- meaning but somewhat misdirected idea of eliminating the honey bucket." While acknowledging the need for good sanitation and clean water, he raised the question of who is going to pay for maintaining those new facilities in the future. He reiterated that the state is not maintaining existing roads by crack- sealing them. Number 1302 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG remarked, "You don't need to crack-seal a gravel road." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied that one has to grade a gravel road, and it costs more to maintain a gravel road than it does a paved one. Number 1324 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said his point was that people are asking for diversity in the economy, getting away from oil development. "If you want true economic development in this state," he said, "you have to open up the land, you have to people the land, you have to give title to the land. And there's plenty of private land in the rural areas of our state that needs to be developed and could be developed if we could get to it with a transportation system that is cost-effective." Although Representative Ogan might be right about the level of maintenance costs, he said, the way to pay for maintenance is to improve the economy. "You develop this state and you generate business and they pay taxes for those roads," he added. Number 1393 REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH reminded his "good friend from the Valley" that there have been some Republican governors since 1971, and no roads were built under those administrations, either. The legislature has been cutting budgets the last couple of years, he noted, and that may have something to do with why some roads are not being kept up. House Bill 8 brings attention where it needs to be brought, he concluded, "and ... maybe we'll get something happening." He said he is very supportive of that intent. Number 1458 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG thanked Representative Kookesh and affirmed that his intent is, indeed, to raise the level of discussion about this issue. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN pointed out for the record that the last governor to try to upgrade a road was Governor Walter Hickel, who attempted to complete the road to Cordova. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG noted that the Cordova road is on the task force list, and said, "We can still keep trying." Number 1581 AMY DAUGHERTY, Lobbyist for the Alaska Professional Design Council, came forward to testify. She noted that the organization's members include civil engineers and architects. She said the Alaska Professional Design Council supports HB 8 contingent upon there being a civil engineer on the task force. Number 1622 THOMAS B. BRIGHAM, Planning Director, Department of Transportation and Public Facilities, noted that DOT&PF participated in committee meetings last year when the subject of HB 8 was being discussed and that the agency would be happy to participate in such a task force if it were set up. Some of the roads on the list are ones the agency has been studying in the context of regional plans, he said. Some of the projects are of questionable cost benefit, "which gets to Representative Ogan's point that the real issue becomes what's the most important thing to spend what money we have on," he acknowledged. He closed by reiterating that DOT&PF would be happy to work with such a task force. Number 1654 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked how much influence a task force like this would have on decision-making processes in DOT&PF. "Where does the rubber hit the road on this thing?" he asked. MR. BRIGHAM said he thinks the influence depends on "how it unfolds and the quality of the work that's done." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Brigham to identify which of the projects already are being considered by DOT&PF. Number 1687 MR. BRIGHAM listed the following projects: the Williamsport Road from Iliamna to Pile Bay, a road to Cordova, the Donlin Creek Road, upgrading the Dalton Highway, a road from Rampart to Eureka, a road from Ruby to McGrath, a road from Ruby to Takotna, and a road from Takotna Flat to Crooked Creek. REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked about the location and length of the Donlin Creek road. MR. BRIGHAM replied it would go from the Kuskokwim River to the mine, about 15-20 miles. He added that the Bureau of Indian Affairs "has taken the earmark that was provided by Congress for that road and is in the process of doing project development on it." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked Mr. Brigham whether he thought it would be helpful in getting funds for some of the projects if the task force provided a prioritized list and the legislature passed a resolution to Congressman Young's [House] Transportation Committee. Number 1778 MR. BRIGHAM said he thought it would be very helpful. "Needless to say, we don't have a pot of money lying around unused," he said, "and in order to deal with the needs we have on the current roadway system and afford to build any of these new roads, which tend to be expensive, that is certainly one approach I think would be helpful." REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if Mr. Brigham had any ideas about creative funding to help with maintenance, for example, some way in which "someone like the mine might enter into it." MR. BRIGHAM agreed that was a possibility, and that DOT&PF "would be some of the most enthusiastic proponents," particularly of new approaches to maintaining pieces of road that are self-contained and off the road system. If the principal user is a mine, it would make a lot of sense to enter into a maintenance agreement with the mine before the road is actually constructed, he said. Number 1855 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if the sponsor of the bill might be interested in inserting language regarding the task force looking into creative ways of maintaining some of the roads that might be built. Number 1925 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked if DOT&PF has feasibility studies that have been completed on the eight projects he had listed. MR. BRIGHAM said virtually all of the projects are contained in one or another of the agency's area plans. Many of them are in the Northwest Transportation Plan. He mentioned the road from Ruby to McGrath as an example. REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked if he had a complete listing, if the studies were available, and if it would be feasible for the state to start these projects, acknowledging that "it all comes back to money." MR. BRIGHAM replied, "Absolutely. It's a challenge." He said an example would be the road from Williamsport to Pile Bay, which the agency examined as part of the Southwest Transportation Plan. That project is recommended in the plan, he said. "We believe it's something that should be done, and for many of the same reasons that [Representative Rokeberg] indicated." The road performs a function, and its use could be expanded if it were improved. "Part of that road is literally carved out of a cliff side, and it's not very wide," he testified. Improving it would be expensive, and even with additional traffic, the use would be light. So the issue is whether the project is sufficiently important to commit to spending $20-40 million. Because most of these [pioneer roads] are new roads or substantial upgrades, most of them come with a fairly steep price tag, he explained. The department [DOT&PF] is not opposed to road construction, "but its a real question [of] how to get the best service from the money we ... have." Number 2049 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK expressed concern about access in the Matanuska Susitna area. She recalled that when the Miller's Reach fire spread out of control, the Parks Highway had to be closed, leaving many people on the north side unable to reach Wasilla. She also mentioned Hatcher Pass, which links the Willow side to Palmer, and said that road is closed except in cases of emergency. Although she acknowledged Representative Rokeberg's point, she expressed concern about the cost of maintaining both old and new roads. Number 2161 ROGER WEBER testified by teleconference. He informed the committee that those in Beluga have their own road, which goes from Bird Mountain to Sleeping Lady. From Wasilla, there is a road going to the Little Susitna River and from there to the Beluga road system, a distance of 45 miles. Beluga is the location of the Chugach power plant, Phillips Petroleum and Unocal facilities, and they all have employees that fly in and out. Nine miles south of Beluga is the village of Tyonek, which has a population of 200. "All of our business is by airplane, and it seems like a short distance to open up this area," he said. "It would be a tremendous help, and we do have a large population." He asked "their position" on a Wasilla-to-Tyonek road. Number 2249 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he knows the area Mr. Weber described. He said the intention of HB 8 is to get public discussion about projects like that one. Number 2285 HAROLD NEWCOMB testified by teleconference. He said he is certainly in favor of such a bill [as HB 8]. Having watched Alaska for more than 50 years, he said, it is apparent to him that road development around the state is very important to development of a sustainable economy. In addition to the economy, there are emergency situations like fires and earthquakes in places that would really benefit if there were road access. Roads would make possible a little bit of economic diversification in remote villages like those now suffering from bad [fish returns]. He said it is important to plan these things properly and set priorities. He said when he drives the Parks Highway, he wonders "why in the world we spent $80 million for a tunnel through [to] Whittier when we didn't do anything to speak of to get this traffic under control out here." He said he also sees that in Anchorage and in other areas, and thinks it is time to get serious about the development of roads around the state. "I think we should do it now and get those priorities set and get on with it!" he concluded. Number 2367 CHAIR KOHRING concurred with the testimony that had been given, but said he somewhat shared Representative Ogan's concerns about setting up another task force and generating another report. He said he thinks HB 8 can serve to highlight the problem, and that there is [federal] money available through Senator Ted Stevens and Congressman Don Young. Number 2492 REPRESENTATIVE WILSON offered a conceptual amendment [to Amendment 1, in committee packets] to add the Bradfield Canal road, at the southern end of Southeast Alaska. Amendment 1 read: Page 1, lines 1, 6 and 7 Insert "Pioneer" between "Legislative" and "Road" Page 3, after line 16, add two new sections as follows: "(23) Road from Dalton Highway west to the Ambler copper district; (24) and any other road the task force feels merits review" TAPE 01-5, SIDE B REPRESENTATIVE WILSON explained that the Bradfield Canal road has been discussed for about ten years, DOT&PF had done some workups on it, and she didn't want it to fall between the cracks. It would be a 25-mile road along the Bradfield Canal, going into British Columbia and connecting with the Cassiar Highway. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he had no objection to its being added to the list. Number 2445 REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH indicated he objected to adding a list of specific roads. He explained that he had thought the words [in Amendment 1] "and any other [road the task force feels merits review]" would cover this. He voiced his preference for having that language as a tool for the task force, rather than "making a Christmas tree" out of HB 8. CHAIR KOHRING called for a vote on the amendment to Amendment 1 [to add the Bradfield Canal road]. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH explained that he was not objecting to including the Bradfield Canal road in particular, but to all the other roads the committee was starting to add, too. He specified that he didn't want to include the east Lynn Canal road, which would be a major highway, not a pioneer road. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG noted that he had prepared two amendments, but did not want to offer the one including the east Lynn Canal highway. CHAIR KOHRING asked whether the objection was maintained. REPRESENTATIVE KOOKESH said he had no objection. CHAIR KOHRING announced that there being no objection, the amendment to Amendment 1 was adopted. Number 2305 CHAIR KOHRING asked whether there was any objection to Amendment 1 [as amended]. There being no objection, Amendment 1 was adopted. CHAIR KOHRING asked Representative Rokeberg to speak to the proposed letter of intent [in packets]. REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he would not offer it at this time. However, he suggested a conceptual amendment on page 2, line 21, after the words "those roads", to add something to the effect of "review alternative funding sources for ongoing maintenance". REPRESENTATIVE MASEK made a motion to adopt that [as Amendment 2]. CHAIR KOHRING asked whether there was any objection. There being no objection, Amendment 2 was adopted. CHAIR KOHRING noted that Amendment 2 was likely in response to Representative Ogan's concerns. He then said he appreciated the sponsor's efforts; he himself had shared Representative Ogan's concerns about duplicating the efforts of a previous task force and producing something that would collect dust on a shelf. In order to follow up on the task force's recommendations, he would like to see the task force findings brought back to the House Transportation Standing Committee in January [2002]. Although Chair Kohring said he was not sure of the need for doing some of the tasks that DOT&PF might already be doing, he recognized that the idea is to highlight the issue of expanding the road system in the state. He added, "If this is one way of doing it, even if we are duplicating some efforts, ... if it means more roads, then I think it's a worthwhile effort." REPRESENTATIVE WILSON made a motion to move HB 8, as amended, out of committee [with the accompanying fiscal note]. There being no objection, CSHB 8(TRA) was moved out of the House Transportation Standing Committee.
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